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I'm A Liberal! How About You?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:22 AM EDT
politics, right, left, conservatism, liberalism
By The OttO Show
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The definitive guide to political labels, what we think they mean, what they really mean and what they should mean...

People may not have noticed, but I more or less stopped using the label "liberal" when describing my ideological opponents.  

After years of listening to liberals claim that they want freedom, that they want equality, that they want fairness, that they want peace...it dawned on me that, hey!  I want those things too.  So then, am I a liberal?

I've read through many definitions of liberals and they were pretty much all over the place.  A quick stop on Wikipedia, however, describes two sides to liberalism.  The first seems like a set-up for modern conservatism:

Classical liberalism emphasizes free private enterprise, individual property rights, generally laissez-faire freedom of contract, and oppose a welfare state. Classical liberals support equality before the law and and hold that economic inequality, arising naturally from competition in the free market, does not justify forced wealth redistribution.

Dictionary.com somewhat completes the picture for conservatives like me by describing conservatism as maintaining traditional order and as "a political or theological orientation advocating the preservation of the best in society and opposing radical changes."  In a way, conservatism exists to preserve liberalism.

The second passage on liberalism describes more aptly what we in political debate would call liberalism today, or what I now lovingly refer to as 'leftism':

New liberals advocate a greater degree of government influence to protect individual rights (in a broad sense), often in the form of anti-discrimination laws. New liberals support universal education, and many also support welfare, including benefits for the unemployed, housing for the homeless, and medical care for the sick, all supported by progressive taxation.So the theories of liberalism have really spread across the ideological spectrum, to the left and the right.  Conservatives seemed to have taken the best, most American principles of classical liberalism and the left have taken what has remained.

It's as if the left has extracted the thin and transparent political correctness fluid out of classical liberalism and redesigned an ideology around a fed, yet hungry, newly empowered political correctness:  equality is manipulated into affirmative action; free-enterprise has evolved into socialism;  property-rights comes with it's own political foreclosure policy; individualism has morphed into victimization  through various forms of class warfare like gender, racial, ethnic, economic - is there any geopolitical example in America that isn't wrought with injustice, prejudice and suffering?  Oh, that only government can solve, of course?

A classical liberal would believe in peace through strength, unconditionally support our efforts over those of our enemies and keep government out of the boardroom and the bedroom.  So why are we calling leftist activists and politicians "liberal"?

After the years of complaints from the left over the label "liberal", I propose a sweeping change to our discourse that should please both sides:  I call on all conservatives to cease using the term liberal to label a person of the left.  As far as I'm concerned, that's as much our label as it is theirs.  And they don't want it.   On more than one occasion, I've read a leftist sneering at the word liberal, stating something along the lines of how liberalism has become a dirty word.  Well yes, unfortunately, it's been perverted to become a label for dirty things.

I'll still call myself a conservative.  Go ahead - call me a right-winger or a neocon...whatever works for you. In my play book, the two warring ideological factions in the United States are conservatism and leftism.  But I may call myself a liberal from time-to-time, just for kicks...

Now I know that some people (usually alleged liberals and the 'unaffiliated') oppose the idea of using labels to describe your opponents.  It's odd that many of the same people who use labels like 'women' and 'black' to determine who they will support for president are also the ones who decry the use of labels or the use of "liberal" to label them.  

Me?  I think labels are fine and appropriate.  And if they are mis-used, then correct the person who labeled you.  I've been labeled a member of the 'Christian-Right' so many times, I've woven it all together to create a carrying bag for my Koran.  

Gotcha!  Actually, I'm really an agnostic (a reluctant atheist, if you will).  Without the use of labels, I wouldn't be able to shock the left time and time again in announcing my non-religious background.  It only shows, when you do label someone, know what you're talking about or be prepared to be corrected.  When I talk to strangers opposed to the war, I try and refer to them as anti-war in some manner.  It's only when it becomes more honest do I pull out the terms leftist and socialist.

Labels help us understand each other and ourselves.  So my questions to you are, rather than applying labels on each other, you tell us what you are.   Taking the many faces of liberalism into play, are you yourself a liberal?  A liberal following an adjective of some sort?  A liberal, but..."   A leftist?  A conservative?  A moderate?  (yeah, me too)  A Bushatist (yeah, I'm pretty sure that's an ideology)  Other?  And are you being completely honest in labeling yourself?

If you are known to identify yoursef as a liberal, please explain why.

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  • Public Discussion (80)
A. H. Min

Yeah, libertarianism is actually from Classic Liberalism.

Also, I'm pretty sure that traditional conservatism was left-wing.

  • 8 votes
Reply#1 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:46 AM EDT
spiffie

Also, I'm pretty sure that traditional conservatism was left-wing.

More information?

  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:43 PM EDT
A. H. Min

I believe (I can't remember where I read this) that classical conservatism believed that man can't rule themselves, and therefore the government must control them.

  • 3 votes
#1.2 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:23 PM EDT
Brenda Mayer

The principles of classical conservativism include:

· support for "God and King,"

· pessimistic view of human nature, where humans are seen as ruled by emotion and irrationality and are not capable of ruling themselves, and,

· humans have a limited capacity to respond to change so government must control the evil impulses of human beings or else these impulses in humans would run rampant.

Classical conservativism emphasizes commitment to tradition and strict moral codes to control peoples' "appetites." It is based on the basic principles of authority, religion, and hierarchy.

  • 7 votes
#1.3 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:11 PM EDT
A. H. Min

Ah, there we go. Thanks Brenda!

  • 2 votes
#1.4 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:46 PM EDT
spiffie

Thanks for the link. Based on that, I would think that classical conservatism doesn't align very well with the "old left" to use terminology also found on that site. It doesn't seem to me particularly left-wing, especially its emphasis on religion and hierarchy.

If anything, if you wanted to make an argument that the far-left radicals displayed characters of authoritarianism (arguable, but not unreasonable), you'd also have to argue that they supported a commitment to religion and a traditional hierarchy, which the left in general doesn't do. All three of those characteristics are found in Christian Reconstructionism, though.

  • 3 votes
#1.5 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:22 PM EDT
Oluseye

I never thought I'd say this: Great article Ottoshow. I of course disagree with your characterisation of the left.

Having said that, Online Apps you could not possibly be more wrong. Conservatism has always been right wing, and has not for one day been anything but.

Libertarians calling themselves "conservative" have confused the issue such that the issues that were fought for and won by liberalism and progressivism, you now identify with the people who opposed them bitterly at the time.

The Loyalists, remember those dirty bastards? They were on the right. They were conservatives. They believed as Ottoshow defined above. When he says that Conservatism exists to protect liberalism, he is in a sense quite right. What he leaves out is that conservatism exists to protect whatever exists now (now we have liberal political systems). The Loyalists loved tradition, the King, the Church, class sytems, priviledge. They wanted to keep it.

It was the left, the liberals, the progressives who wrestled everything away from them.

A liberal in 1776 was far left. Liberals have always been on the left until today.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:43 PM EDT
A. H. Min

Yeah, I think I got confused with Liberalism originally being right wing. My humble apologies.

  • 5 votes
#1.7 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:47 PM EDT
badkungfu

pessimistic view of human nature

I realized this before but didn't know it was part of the definition. It's very instructive for understanding conservatives.

If I thought it were equal opportunity pessimism, I'd be OK with that. But I think it's generally pessimism about people who are not like oneself.

I prefer "Trust, but verify". Hey, waitaminnit...

  • 2 votes
#1.8 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:58 PM EDT
Reply
Brenda Mayer

According to an internet test I took I'm a "centrist", but most people call me conservative and I call myself a right winger.

  • 3 votes
Reply#2 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:39 AM EDT
Tim Boothby

Which am I? Depends on the subject.

And sometimes who is yelling a label at me.

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:53 AM EDT
Brenda Mayer

About five years ago I considered myself to be a moderate Republican, but then I started listening to talk radio and found myself agreeing with so much of it. It was weird realizing that what I considered to be purely common sense isn't.

  • 4 votes
#3.1 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:57 AM EDT
Reply
Bodhi1

I prefer Larry Elder's "Republi-tarian" only these days, I call it "Conserva-tarian."

  • 8 votes
Reply#4 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:35 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Brenda Mayer

I think I'm going to create my own label. I'll call myself a Brendarian. We believe in Brendarianism. Right now this mostly involves legal ways of getting rid of my neighbor out back, but I suspect that our belief system will expand.

  • 5 votes
Reply#6 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:29 PM EDT
A. H. Min

I prefer Pastryism myself. It evolved from HeDonutism (evolved from Hedonism), which is a belief in eating all donuts possible. Pastryism is a broader view, where we eat ALL pastries (not just donuts).

  • 8 votes
#6.1 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:55 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Brenda Mayer

Pastryism is a broader view, where we eat ALL pastries (not just donuts).

How open minded of you, *chuckle*.

  • 5 votes
#6.3 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:08 PM EDT
A. H. Min

How open minded of you, *chuckle*.

The chief reason I converted from HeDonutism.

  • 5 votes
#6.4 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:11 PM EDT
Brenda Mayer

It never caught on sadly.

Sounds wonderfully simple! I could probably get into something like that.

In the meantime, though, I've still got to get rid of the pesky neighbor. Not for long, they can come back once my new house is built.

  • 5 votes
#6.5 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:11 PM EDT
Reply
Renesis

I am a conservatibal. Or maybe a libervative.

  • 5 votes
Reply#7 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:11 PM EDT
Brenda Mayer

How about a conservatarian? Could I interest you in a little Brendarianism?

  • 5 votes
#7.1 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:12 PM EDT
Reply
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

There are psychological reasons why we "become" a Liberal or a Conservative. It is not a decision based merely on ideology alone. And like all behaviors there are the extreme forms that are harmful. What makes you a Tree Hugger who spikes trees to stop logging or Gandhi. Are you a Ronald Reagan or a Neo-Nazi depends on which side of the possible range of behaviors you gravitate towards. The Far-Right nor the Far-Left, will never get my my vote. Except to be committed to a psychiatric institution.

  • 9 votes
Reply#8 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:56 PM EDT
analog ninja

I learned in my modern us history class today that the term neo-conservative came from members of the Democratic Party, that in the 50's were anti-communist classic liberals, and in the 1960's thought the party was too cozy with communists, social activists and entitlement programs. So they fled to the Republican Party but maintained their classic liberal perspective.
Whoo Hoo way to tie it all together there, Otto! One of my fave moments from the sort of recent Barry Goldwater documentary on HBO was when he said, "...in the future they might call me a liberal..." My mind was opened to the possibilities of the transitory effects of political psychology, and of course the time space continuum.

  • 5 votes
Reply#9 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:34 PM EDT
Oluseye

I am very liberal. I am progressive. I identify completely with the left though I acknowledge that Communism was wrong, free markets work better, and Socialism has its limits. In terms of my personal attitudes I am very libertarian. I believe in free will moderated by personal responsibility.

I am pacifist but I recognise NOT the inevitability but the possibility of war. I think countries should wind down 90% of their militaries and train every citizen for military service.

I believe in open borders and financial liberalism. I believe in the United Nations. I believe in international law. I believe in the FDR legacy. I believe government is legitimate and its legitimacy is highest when it promotes equality and liberty.

I believe taxes are necessary and the prerogative of government. I believe in virtually all things the UK Liberal Democrats stand for. I support the US Democrats 90% of the time. I reject the French Socialists as conservative/not progressive.

I reject warmongers, statists, reactionaries, traditionalists, authoritarians, totalitarians, jihadists, fundamentalists, racists and other wild animals.

I think the only legitimate role of conservatism is to counterbalance liberalism and progressivism.

  • 9 votes
Reply#10 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:58 PM EDT
Forest Browne

Otto, where is the satire label, or are you just practicing comedy.

Forest

  • 4 votes
Reply#11 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:18 PM EDT
sleuth

The second passage on liberalism describes more aptly what we in political debate would call liberalism today, or what I now lovingly refer to as 'leftism

I agree with this. Liberalism today in the eyes of many is the same as leftism. I was once influenced by Marx's and Lenin's theories but communism, a form of the proposed socialism, has destroyedtheir ideals by turning freedom into dictatorship.

  • 4 votes
Reply#12 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:34 PM EDT
Bozzor

In Australia, the Liberal Party of Australia is actually the conservative, right wing party: it is only liberal in the economic sense. There was many years ago a socially liberal side to it, but that now has largely been expunged.

So, I am a Liberal, but definitely not a liberal. Go figure...

  • 5 votes
#13 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:07 AM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

Better not be a nationalist then or I'll be in real trouble...

  • 3 votes
#13.2 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:12 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

Indeed! I guess that makes socialists who have some form of national pride jack booted loons too.

I have had so much difficulty explaining the Australian Liberals to my US friends..."They're not Liberals, they're conservative. The Labor party is more liberal...etc etc etc" ad nauseum.

  • 3 votes
#13.4 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:29 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

Just looked them up, but no, have not heard of them. Am familiar with some of the software packages.

  • 3 votes
#13.6 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:19 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

You get what you pay for...;-P

Actually, Australia salaries/wages/consultant rates are far more 'compressed' than in the US. In Australia, we have strict laws that make minimal wages considerably higher than in the US. However, at the upper level, we do not have the extremities that the US has. Smart people can do well here, but they can easily make far more money in the US.

However, given the exchange rate movement lately, the cheapness here is not as good as it was. A few years ago, the AUD was around USD 0.50...nowadays, it is around USD 0.84. Our exchange rate advantage has gone.

  • 3 votes
#13.8 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:46 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

Our i/r are going to be a bitch of an election issue. Our u/e rate is 4.2%, and that is given very strict rules: if we used US standards, I think it would come in around 3.8%, maybe less.

Our currency is likely to strengthen further as the commodities boom continues and especially uranium comes into fashion...and we may well get another i/r rise to cool off the economy, which may see our dollar hit USD 0.87, at which point a lot of our manufactured exports get a real kick in the goolies...

  • 3 votes
#13.10 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:09 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

Actually, the polls have turned around slightly recently so perhaps it is not as certain as it was a month ago.

And Rudd is actually far more right than Tony Blair. It is amazing how the sea change in Australia has occurred. 30 years ago, Rudd would have been regarded as too right for the Liberal Party then. Even 15 years ago he would have been comfortable in our Liberal party.

Btw, Romney is playing it very, very smart...

  • 3 votes
#13.12 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:32 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

The guy's brilliant: they don't exactly give away Baker scholarships at Harvard Business School, nor do you exactly fudge your way to the top at Bain & Co.

But he's a Mormon and that ain't gonna go down well South...

Where do you see his weaknesses?

  • 2 votes
#13.14 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:49 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
spiffie

Jeez, Bartleby, you should become his campaign manager. If you keep it up like this, I might vote for him.

  • 3 votes
#13.16 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:05 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

He does seem to now be a different individual to what he was a few years ago and Massachusetts, as far as I know, is not exactly famous for raising good ol' boys! But he is running a very smart campaign and he does have the presidential look to him. And there does not seem to be any dirt on him: married to the same woman (who is ill with MS) for almost 4 decades, not even a hint of infidelity.

His record is a bit weird though, does seem to be pandering, but they all do these days, except Ron Paul.

  • 4 votes
#13.18 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:32 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

LOL! Well, you're not the first anti-Semitic Jew I've met then.

Just checked their website out. I think they really.

But is Ron Paul himself an anti-Semite? He just strikes me as being the ultimate libertarian.

  • 2 votes
#13.21 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:26 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

A bit like hard core Catholics, conservative Jews and Islamists joining together against gays and cloning.

  • 2 votes
#13.23 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:39 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

Ron Paul is not getting my vote. Or Romney. I have no party, and consider myself a Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican. But I'm the only one left, considering they have been gone since, 1807. If anyone wants to party let me know.

  • 2 votes
#13.25 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:02 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

We had a massive blow up in our state of New South Wales with stem cells past fortnight: the Catholic Archbishop threatened Catholic members of Parliament if they voted in favour of it and it caused a huge commotion about political interference by religious bodies.

  • 3 votes
#13.27 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:43 PM EDT
BartlebyDeleted
Bozzor

There was a great cartoon a few years ago showing two Aborigines walking around with a metal detector that was going off and saying to each other "Looks like we've found another sacred site!".

The Piano was disturbing at a raw emotional level. But to really be disturbed properly, try watching Saw 1 after a few shots of real absinthe...

  • 3 votes
#13.29 - Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:10 AM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, ZoilusDeleted
Calvin Tang

Respect the CoH1

  • 1 vote
#13.31 - Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:03 PM EDT
Reply
BartlebyDeleted
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